Question - Fast singles

[Schreck]

since some months, I try to improve my singles.
They are now quite fast.
But I have a problem.
The problem is, when I play the singles fast, I use my fingers.
If I'am playing the singles slower, I use the wrist.
If I'am playing the singles fast with fingers, I'am not able to play any accents.
that's the reason, why I'am playing as long as possible with the wrist.
And so, there is a specific tempo, when I have to CHANGE the style.
but there is always a big HOLE between the two styles.
for example like - I don't measured it, it's just an example, -
I play with wirst up to 950 bpm and keep going with fingers and the slowest motion with fingers is -
just for example ... - 1050. I don't know, if it's so fast.
It sounds pretty fast, but it's just an example.
So, I have the ability, to change the tempo with Fingerpalying,
but I CAN'T close this hole between for example 950 and 1050.
any idea for this problem ? any practice routines ?
problem is, it seems to me so, that I cannot just play it first SLOW and than improve the tempo.
I saw a video by Buddy rich, and it seems to me, that he didn't have my problem.

[Suspiria]

If I understood this correctly, your playing looses fluidity when switching from playing with your wrists and then your fingers, right?
Well put this into a musical context. Will you often be playing a selection of different tempos, within one tune? The only situation I could imagine where you might get problems is during a solo, where you play a variety of tempos.
The one thing I would recommend is dropping the tempo and playing both wrists and fingers at the same low speed. This should allow you to gain more control. Also, you will be able to hear the lack of fluidity at a lower speed. Try it out!

[Schreck]

If I understood this correctly, your playing looses fluidity when switching from playing with your wrists
and then your fingers, right?

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not really.
I'am faster with fingers.
I'am speeding up the tempo with the wirst.
there is a pont, where it's too fast for my wirst.
Then I change.
but I can't change without loosing perhaps 100 bpm.
My wirst stops at 950 and my fingers start at 1050.
even if I play fast and want to get slower. the same.
it's not the question of fluid, if I understand correctly what fluid does mean in this context.
I think, there is just a special tempo, which I just cannot play.
and it's not the maximum speed. it's the speed BETWEEN.
and this is strange.

=========================

Well put this into a musical context. Will you often be playing a selection of different tempos, within one tune?

=========================

no, but it's important sometimes.
yes not REALLY important, but ...
the tempo might be not different, but the single stroak roll is not even,
if I, for example, speed up the roll itself.

=========================

The only situation I could imagine where you might get problems is during a solo, where you play a variety of tempos.
The one thing I would recommend is dropping the tempo and playing both wrists and fingers at the same low speed.
This should allow you to gain more control. Also, you will be able to hear the lack of fluidity at a lower speed.
Try it out!

=========================

yes, it sounds good. I tried it a lot.
but I have the problem with high speed.
I will never get as fast with the wrist as with the fingers, I think.
So, I never can speed up from low tempo to highest tempo with the wrist.
there is always something like a boarder.
It changed nothing, to try it at a low tempo.
I thought, there migth be a specific practice routine, like combine a septuplet with a quinttuplet or something like this.

but anyway, thanks for your try.

[Suspiria]

You pointed out that you play faster with your fingers as compared to your wrist. While this may not be true for everyone, it makes sense as your fingers are the smaller muscle group and over time you should be able to move them faster. I still find it hard to help you - maybe I am not understanding your problem fully. Do you mind posting a sound recording of your roll, that would really help.
PS: Are you playing with a metronome or are you using the drumometer?

[mja61]

Interesting question. A few thoughts...

- When I first saw Weckl's "Back to Basics," it seemed that the finger control method was the secret to high-speed singles. After trying to use the idea for a while, I realized that it was not the ultimate technique for me, but it is still a good technique to have in the repertoire.

- Mangini says he plays 99% with the "palm-down" wrist-only approach. I think his ideas on technique are very advanced and worth checking out. After seeing him in clinic and listening to his ideas, I discovered that this palm-down approach is the best way for me to have speed, power and control. What's cool is that I don't feel I have to sacrifice one to get another. The trick to getting the speed is to understand the "hummingbird" motion the wrists must have for this approach.

- Watching videos of Buddy doing singles on his snare that gradually speed up, I never see him convert to the thumb-up grip, even at top speed. (Check out the "At the Top" video for sure!)

- What I realized is that the finger-control technique depends significantly on the rebound, which is not always available on loosely-tuned tom heads. On the other hand, if there is too much rebound, it feels like the stick is playing you. The bad news (IMO, at least) is that the "finger-control" method requires a lot of effort to "control" the stick. I have a hard time keeping the singles evenly spaced (nothing more practice wouldn't fix, of course! ;-))

- Mangini also points out that with the thumb-up grip, the stick is hard to control since it can easily move sideways without warning, making it possible to miss the target altogether.

- Even when playing (or trying to play, in my case) a fast swing pattern on the ride, I almost always feel better with the palm-down grip. More control, less effort. I saw Mangini swing his ass off for about 10 minutes straight on a small jazz kit with the palm-down grip, so it's a viable alternative to the thumb-up grip.

Here is a video clip of Virgil doing a demo on single strokes, starting off slowly, and then speeding up gradually. He starts off with wrists, then converts to fingers, but THEN converts back to wrists (with a bit of forearm thown in) for some super-fast, high-power, bad-ass singles (holy crapola, Batman!!)

Virgil's singles

PS - As Weckl points out in his newer technique video, you have to be careful with the thumb-up grip because you can hurt yourself if you hit too hard that way.

<font color="#a62a2a" size="1">[ February 21, 2005 09:00 PM: Message edited by: mja61 ]</font>

[benrand]

The secret to getting accents at fast speed is in the elbow, not the wrist. It all starts back there.

I was able to play faster with more control after working on the moeller grip and moving the fulcrum back to the heel of my hand.

[Schreck]

hi suspiria, mja61 and benrand,

thanks for your advices.
I think, perhaps I try this idea with palm down at high speed.
But I have no idea, how I could become as fast as I am with fingers.
And perhaps I try the elbow method.
I never heard from it, but I try.
Or perhaps, I use the elbow and just don't realize it.
But does it work with FINGERplaying ?


P.S. Recordings ? Sorry, not possible. I'am an internetIdiot.
And I have nothing to record.
I'am not playing with a metronome or using a drumometer.
My timing is not excellent, but o.k.
As you perhaps know, I play most of the times alone just for myself.

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- Even when playing (or trying to play, in my case) a fast swing pattern on the ride,
I almost always feel better with the palm-down grip. More control, less effort.
I saw Mangini swing his ass off for about 10 minutes straight on a small jazz kit with the palm-down grip,
so it's a viable alternative to the thumb-up grip.

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for me, it depends, where I put the accent.
If I want to accent the frist stroke, palm down really makes not much sense to me !?
but if I want to accent the third stroke, then I use pam down. that's right.